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2006-10-05
Alex Anderson (, IP: 24.90.146...)
2006-10-05 04:38
Transilvania si mongolii (2)

Bibliografie de studiat pentru toti interesati de istoria Transilvaniei.
Textul este copiat din limba engleza. Cred ca nu va fi un impediment pentru cei ce cunosc limba romana sa inteleaga textul de mai jos.


The Hungarian chronicler Simon de Keza (2nd half of the 13 th c.) notes in fact that the Romanians lived in Pannonia before arrival of the Hungarians, and in Transylvania , before the settlement of the Szecklers, who are said to have formed the Hungarians’ vanguard in the battles
waged for the conquest of the Intra – Carpathian Romanian territory.

Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum, Chap. IV, paragraph 1, 7, 6.



Pascua Romanorum or Pastores Romanorum are phrases that designate the presence of the Romanians in Pannonia at the moment when the Hungarians made their appearance.
Odo de Deogilo (Deuil), a participant in the second crusade (1147) speakes about Julius Caesar‘s grazing fields (fibula Julii Caesaris). Ricardus the Dominican, affirms in his Hungaria Magna (1237) that the Hungary was called pascua Romanorum on the arrivals of Hungarians. Thomas de Spalato ( active by the middle of the 13 th c.) wrote that Hungary was pascua Romanorum (Hot regio dicitur antiquitus fuisse pascua Romanorum). The Chronicon rhytmicum Sitticense, written after Tatar invasion of 1241, says that the kindom of the Hungarian was called pascua Romanorum. Finally, in Descriptio Europae Orientalis, compiled in 1308, mention is made of the existence of the Romanians of Thessalia , called pastores Romanorum, and inhabiting Hungary, where they were pascua Romanorum. In contradiction to other medieval chroniclers, Anonymous, made older information on Romanians meet the ethnical realities in contemporary Hungary and was thus the first to establish a connection between Romanians and pascua Romanorum, the Romanians being thus considered the descendants of Romans.

ps: "spock " verifica bibliografia de mai sus inainte sa comentezi destul de necivilizat parerea unei persoane pe care nu o cunosti. Se pare ca de fapt d-ta ai studiat numai istoria stalinista depre poporul roman care de ce sa nu recunosc este favorabila unora ca d-ta. Cred ca este timpul sa cauti o sursa istorica alternativa de informare despre poporul in mijlocul caruia traiesti. Wikipendia dumi-tale este o sursa de informare care se adreseaza in general celor care n-au prea multa cultura. Oricum iti multumesc pentru atentia acordata acum doua zile.. Alex

^spock^ (...@yahoo.de, IP: 84.56.207...)
2006-10-05 21:58
Re: Transilvania si mongolii (2)

La 2006-10-05 04:38:50, Alex Anderson a scris:

> ps: "spock " verifica bibliografia de mai sus inainte sa
> comentezi destul de necivilizat parerea unei persoane pe care nu o
> cunosti. Se pare ca de fapt d-ta ai studiat numai istoria stalinista
> depre poporul roman care de ce sa nu recunosc este favorabila unora
> ca d-ta. Cred ca este timpul sa cauti o sursa istorica alternativa de
> informare despre poporul in mijlocul caruia traiesti. Wikipendia
> dumi-tale este o sursa de informare care se adreseaza in general
> celor care n-au prea multa cultura. Oricum iti multumesc pentru
> atentia acordata acum doua zile.. Alex
>

Draga Alex, mai studiaza si tu:

"The Gesta Hungarorum contains correct facts, inaccurate facts, and information that cannot be confirmed from other sources. One may choose to believe this information or not. Some parts are considered by most modern authors as simply inventions (by the author or by his predecessors) and contradict the Frankish and other chronicles. Some personal names are simply derived from local names. Some of the work is directly from earlier sources, and covers the history of the Magyar peoples moving into the Carpathian basin.
Gesta Hungarorum's main subject of controversy concerns the mentioning of the existence of the local rulers of Gelou, Glad and Menumorut in Transylvania at the arrival of the Magyars in the 10th century (see: Origin of Romanians). The existence of these three dukedoms mainly inhabited by Vlachs and Slavs is controversial. and denied by some historians (Hungarian, Slovak), while others (Romanian, Hungarian, Serbian) expose opposite arguments. The main arguments against their existence is the presence of provably wrong information in some other parts of the Gesta, and the fact that Gesta Hungarorum mentions Cumanians among the peoples who lived in Transylvania at that time, while Cumanians actually arrived there 150 years after Hungarians. There is opposite opinion, which claim that author of the Gesta actually confound Cumanians with Pechenegs, which spoke a similar language to that of the Cumanians and lived in approximate same territory."

La cultura cu care te lauzi, trebuia sa ai habar de astea.

Pe langa asta, arata-mi si tu, unde vezi tu cuvantul Roman? (Asta oricare dintre parti ar avea dreptate).

^spock^ (...@yahoo.de, IP: 84.56.207...)
2006-10-05 22:02
Re: Transilvania si mongolii (2)

La 2006-10-05 04:38:50, Alex Anderson a scris:

> ps: "spock " verifica bibliografia de mai sus inainte sa
> comentezi destul de necivilizat parerea unei persoane pe care nu o
> cunosti. Se pare ca de fapt d-ta ai studiat numai istoria stalinista
> depre poporul roman care de ce sa nu recunosc este favorabila unora
> ca d-ta. Cred ca este timpul sa cauti o sursa istorica alternativa de
> informare despre poporul in mijlocul caruia traiesti. Wikipendia
> dumi-tale este o sursa de informare care se adreseaza in general
> celor care n-au prea multa cultura. Oricum iti multumesc pentru
> atentia acordata acum doua zile.. Alex
>
"Regarding the area of Bihor:

Gesta hungarorum says:
....The lands between the Tisa and the forest towards Transylvania and from the Mures river to the Somes river was occupied by Duke Morout, whose grandson was called Men-Marot by the Hungarians. The lands were inhabited by people called Khozar. The Hungarian leader Arpad, sends messengers to Bihar and asks Menumorout to cede the territory between the Somes river and Mezes mountains. Menumorout refuses, referring to his lord the Byzantium Emperor. After three days of siege at Sotmar (now Szatmar = Satu Mare) the castle is taken. The story is told once again, but this time Menumorurt who had earlier declined "with a Bulgarian heart" now gives the lands and his daughter.....

Regarding the area of Banat:
Gesta hungarorum says:
....The lands between the Mures river and the castle of Orsova was occupied by Duke Glad, who came from the castle of Vidin. His descendent was Ahtum, who later in the time of King Stephen was killed by Csanad, the son of Bobuka. The Hungarians sent an army against Duke Glad and subdued the population between the Mures and Temes rivers. When they tried to pass the Temes river Glad came against them with a great army including Cuman, Bulgarian and Vlach support. On the following day the Hungarians defeated the enemy......

Regarding the area of Transylvania:
Gesta hungarorum says:
....Teteny, the father of Horka, found out from the inhabitants about the territory beyond the forest, where some Vlach Gelu ruled.....and the territory beyond the forrest was held by the decedents of Teteny until the time of Stephen, and would have continued to be if Gyula and his sons Bolya and Bonyha had been willing to adopt Christianity and not act against the king. Teteny sent a spy beyond the forrest and he reported that it was rich in salt, gold and many good rivers. The inhabitants of that country were the most unworthy in the world because they were Vlachs and Slavs. A fierce battle started, in which the soldiers of Gelu were defeated. ... Gelu was pursued by warriors of Teteny and killed. When the inhabitants of the country saw the death of their lord, they wanted to make peace and chose Teteny as their leader......"

Daca e sa dai crezare ad literam la tot ce scrie in cronica asta, atunci pot veni si bulgarii, sa zica e al lor Ardealul....

^spock^ (...@yahoo.de, IP: 84.56.207...)
2006-10-05 22:05
Re: Transilvania si mongolii (2)


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